88 | From Picky Eater to Food Explorer with Brenda from That Makes Sense OT

Today I am speaking with Brenda an Occupational Therapist who wants to help families with meal time strategies as she understands the power struggles that can occur at meal times with little ones. Her goal is to not only help your child with eating but also with the whole experience around the meal and meal time. 

Struggling with mealtime rigidity and seeking strategies to make your child more adventurous with food? Let me share with you insights from my enlightening conversation with Brenda, a seasoned occupational therapist. We navigate the complexities of children's eating habits, from texture preferences to oral motor skills, and discuss techniques to promote a more flexible approach to mealtime.

To start off, Brenda shares wisdom about children's development and how it impacts their eating habits. She guides us through the intricacies of texture aversions and the importance of equipping children with crucial oral motor skills like proper chewing and gag reflex control. But we don't just stop at the technicalities. Brenda and I devote a chunk of our chat to creating a positive mealtime atmosphere. We delve into the importance of building trust and fun into your child's mealtime, from trusting their hunger signals to encouraging their participation in food preparation.

But it's not all talk. For those of you eager to put our advice into practice, Brenda has generously offered resources to the first 20 listeners who reach out to her. So, let's start this journey together, equipping our children with healthy eating habits that last a lifetime. Tune in and join us in this shared mission of raising healthy humans.

• 0:03
• Mealtime Strategies for Busy Moms
• 19:03
• Texture Preferences and Oral Motor Skills
• 33:36
• Improving Mealtime for Children
• 44:48
• Trust and Fun in Child's Mealtime

Brenda Chilstrom, founder of That Makes Sense OT, is a pediatric occupational therapist with over 25 years of experience working with children and families experiencing difficulties with feeding issues. Brenda has a heart for helping families create a safe space that allows their children’s natural curiosity to emerge and transform the rigidity and power struggles around the eating process into joy-filled, adventurous exploration of foods. She envisions a world where all children are flourishing and becoming the curious, adventurous little beings they were born to be.

For a free tip sheet to decrease stress during mealtimes, sign up at www.thatmakessenseot.com

Instagram: @thatmakessenseot
FB: That Makes Sense OT

TABLE TIME with That Makes Sense OT offer:
A safe, encrypted video sharing opportunity where parents who feel stuck and are tired of the power struggles around eating can video their current challenges and receive tailored educational advice to help jumpstart them toward more peaceful and productive mealtimes. Disclaimer: for educational purposes-- not meant to be a substitute for direct therapeutic intervention. This offer is valued at over $300 and is offered at an introductory price of $49 for listeners of this podcast only. This offer is limited to the first 20 respondents. Full offer details can be found at 

TABLE TIME

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Transcript

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Welcome to raising healthy humans. A podcast created for busy moms where you can easily find info on health and wellness for your family. Join Courtney, a health coach movement and posture specialist and founder form fit and active and supportive community where she helps busy moms move more here on raising healthy humans podcast. She shares personal life experiences, training, knowledge and conversations with other health and wellness experts so you can raise healthy humans. Today I am speaking with Brenda an occupational therapist who wants to help families with mealtime strategies as she understands the power struggles that can occur at mealtime with little ones. Her goal is to not only to help your child with the actual eating of the food with therapy, but also with the whole experience around the meal and mealtime. I really hope you enjoy our conversation. I think she brings a lot of value to helping us look at mealtime a little bit differently. I Brenda how are you? I'm Courtney. I am great. Thank you so much for having me. Of course, of course. I want you to speak with me about what you do. So you are an occupational therapist. Yes. And you live here in Naples. And yes, we are offering families you found that you wanted to really dive into so occupational therapy, there's many different avenues you can go. But you ended up working with families on helping them with mealtime strategies and helping children to work on eating. Right, can you tell me a little bit more about like what brought you into that specific Avenue? Your I have been an occupational therapist for 30 years. I have always worked with kids. When I first started out, I worked in the school system. In another states, I was in Kansas and I was in South Dakota. And but I've always worked with early intervention while I was working with school aged children as well. And early intervention is my love. It's why I came to Florida also was to take a job in early intervention. And the kids that I was working with, really had so many feeding struggles. And that was a pain point for so many of the families was really having difficulty struggling with mealtimes not knowing what to feed their children not knowing how to feed their children. And so I started doing more continuing ed for feeding therapy and just grew to love it and grew to just working with loved working with families loved working with the kids and just seeing how if it helps bring a lot of my background together, you know, I know you talk a lot about breathing, and the core and polyvagal theory. And you know, when you look at all of those things combined, you look at sensory integration. And everything is needed for eating, eating is one of our our hardest things that our body has to do. And so it's just it's a fascinating thing for me. And it's, you know, something that parents need to struggle that are struggling with multiple times a day with their kids. And so just to be able to help parents figure out what will work for their child is something that I really feel called to do. Okay, so interesting. You said what you said, because when I think I mean, my children are older now, but when I think about them being toddlers, and you know, I mean, I know you even work with newborns, but really when you start to see toddlers, you start to see them getting picky and starting to show preferences towards foods and I don't think I ever thought well, I need to go see an occupational therapist about this. So can you tell me like how, like, where would someone want to begin like, are there certain things that they're looking for? Or they you really, I mean, you help people not Just on the occupational therapy side of the mealtime strategies as well, right? Right, right. Yes. So there is in toddlerhood, there is an unnatural developmental progression that all kids tend to go through, where it's called neophobia, where it's the fear of something new, which includes food. And so all toddlers tend to go through a developmental stage where they want the same thing the same way served to them all the time. And, you know, it's tricky getting through that stage, it's about 18 months old, is when kids will go through that. And really, if if kids get stuck in that is where a lot of the issue happens, then, because parents get to the point where they're like, Oh, but I have to feed them this in this certain way. Say, it's, you know, peanut butter and jelly sandwich. And if I cut it wrong, you know, oh, no, the world is ending, we need to do this right and don't breathe, we have to use the yellow plates, you know, all of those things, parents find all the tricks that make it work for their child. And in the meantime, what is happening there is their child is becoming even more rigid, even more inflexible, and doubling down on, if this doesn't happen, then the world is not aligned properly, and I'm not going to eat. And that's where, you know, parents are in their best intentions are doing what they can figure out what to do. However, those are the things that we want to try and mix things up. You know, it's okay, if we don't have the yellow plate today. Look, we have this, this is cool. You know, just trying to help kids become more flexible, become more adventurous in their eating is what can set them up for success. The thing that I know parents have really struggled with that I hear all the time is going to that 18 month pediatrician visits and voicing their concerns and hearing wait and see. And I am here to you know, tell those mamas mamas trust your gut. You know, if there is an issue with your child, and you have good intuition, and, you know, it does not hurt to reach out and find some education and find what will work. And you know, that's one of one of my main goals at this point in my career is to help parents find those answers before it becomes a real problem for their children. The earlier the better. The you know, the more that we can build in that flexibility, the better off they'll be. Okay. So if our child because I mean, this is like, like you said, once you hit 18 months, this is kind of what they do. So do you usually recommend for not falling into that scenario of feeding them the same things, trying to change it up constantly? Or do you try to one thing that I usually recommend, and this is what I did, this is how we got through dinner time. Instead of me being a short order cook for everyone. I ended up doing like, this was what was for dinner, everything on the plate. And then I always put something I knew that they would love. So that could have been a side that each one of them like something different. Like you got yogurt, you got strawberries, you got goldfish, but it was like Is that what you usually recommend to still provide them options or still provide them? I know I'm saying kind of, like, you know what I'm asking. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. For toddlers for preschoolers, actually any age child that is struggling with some feeding things, you know, would you want to go to the table if there's absolutely you know, if there's things there that you've never seen before, there's things that you are have tried before and they look really gross to you and whatever, you know, if if there is something there that you trust, and you know that will fill your belly and help you feel better and you know, that is absolutely what we want to start with. Definitely We have a safe food is what we call it. And then definitely, you know, family meal times serving meals, just getting the exposure of passing something. So you're seeing it, so you're smelling it. So that you might have to be touching in interacting with the food, that all helps to decrease the fear that surrounds a new food. You know, and there's, there's so many steps that come to there's actually the the SOS approach to feeding I've taken their courses in sequential oral sensory is what SOS stands for. And they have come out with 32 steps for feeding at the very top of the staircase is eating, chewing and swallowing, at the very bottom of it is tolerating being in the room. So you can go from tolerating being in the room with that food, up to seeing it, touching it, smelling it, bringing it to your body, like to your lips, tasting it, getting it inside your mouth, which we teach kids how to if you're not feeling safe with this food, if you're not quite ready for it, it's okay to take it out of your mouth and put it on the napkin. That's an important skill. And once kids feel safe with that, they will do more, knowing that they are in a trusting relationship with you, they are connected to you, they know that you know what if I'm not quite ready for this, it's okay. She told me it's okay to put it on my napkin. So we get we get further along, in in therapy, if we, you know, can teach some of those skills and show what you can do with food and not make and take some of the fear away from it. Okay, so would you say, my guess is that you're not recommending parents, like if there's a green bean on the plate and the child doesn't like the green bean, it's you eat the green bean or else I am not a fan. Because then it becomes a power struggle. And the hardest thing I mean, parents are already feeling drained by you know, their worries around the feeding process. They are getting into power struggles. And when we're in a power struggle with a child, guess who wins the child that usually wins unless it becomes a huge ordeal. And what what you know, my mission is that we will take away those power struggles from meals that we will reconnect, we will build that trust in the feeding process that we can use fun food exploration activities, just follow some easy educational tips. And then we can have the kids and the parents feel safe seen heard in this binning process. And we want to transform those mealtime power struggles to become be in harmony, you know, be a hold those families together with acceptance and come from a place of yes, you know, when you're ready, you can do these things. And that's not to say that we don't interact with that green bean on the plates. We can you know, like if it and, you know, it's like one of those steps if you're okay with the green bean being on the plates. Great. You know what? And if you're not, may mean, you know what, here, I take one more green beam, can you hand it to me, then you move up the steps of that ladder? You know, and the kid is like, Yes, I'll get rid of this off my plate. But they interacted with it. And they were successful with that interaction and possibly towards you know, like, oh, okay, so you know what, that wasn't that bad. I touched it. The world didn't end, you know, oh, maybe we should have past the bowl of green beans around and maybe this time, we can cut the green beans and see what's inside. You know, different things for exploration. Okay, okay. Well, and that makes a lot of sense. It's interesting. You know, I know you mentioned this as well that one way to get your children more interested in Seuss is to have them help at dinner time with making the foods And I find it very interesting how my children are. And it seems like my daughter, she loves green beans. And I remember for snapping green beans at mealtime like, that's what we did. My son, my middle son, he loves asparagus. And he used to be the one that would always come snap the asparagus. Now, I don't know if that like really is what brought it all together for them. But I just find it interesting how they both specifically always wanted to help do that job. And that tends to be their favorite of the vegetables that they eat. Yes, and that is, that's such a great example. One thing that we love to do, when we're, you know, like, I love to see what kids are interested in and build from their interests, and helping in the kitchen is a great thing. And, you know, once kids are around the age of five or six, they love to do science experiments. And so we will do science experiments with food. So that, you know, it's like, let's see, what happens if we can help. What do you think would happen? If we change this food? What do you think, you know? Will it be the same taste? Will it be the same texture? Will it smell the same, all of those kinds of things that we can still do exploration. And the more exploration you do, the more neurons are firing in your brain. And the more that your sensory system is getting to be okay with the food, and it, you know, your cortisol levels are going to decrease and you are going to be more open. And I see it all the time with the more open, the more, the more playful, that we can be. In therapy sessions, the more that kids are willing to, I mean, it shocks them sometimes even that they're like, Oh, I didn't even know that I was gonna put that in my mouth. And I did. And you know, what it's, you know, and then like some of the kids around, you know, early elementary school age, you can kind of give a rating scale, you know, how you know, okay, so that just went in your mouth, let's talk about the flavor of it. What did it teams play, you know, on a scale of one to 1010 being the absolute best thing you ever ate? One being the worst thing you ever ate? What number would you give that, and it's shocking to me sometimes that kids rarely give it below five, you know? So that is, it's, it's a great way to just kind of show, you know, okay, so if that was a hard thing for you to do, you know, it went into your mouth, and maybe you weren't expecting that to be that texture. Maybe it was a little bit more squirmy than you thought it was going to be, you know, we use all sorts of different adjectives around things. You know, okay, so how do you think that we can change that next time? So that, you know, oh, maybe it will be a little bit easier for it to be in your mouth? If we maybe it was too wet? What if we took a paper towel and We dried it off a little bit? Do you think that what how do you think maybe if we sprinkled some cinnamon on it, that that would change? You know, whatever it is that there's different ways that we can change the sensory aspects of it to help with the actual functional feeding aspects of the food? Okay, well, you mentioned texture, and I know this is something that a lot of families deal with myself included when my oldest was younger. There was a I mean, he's still like that today. But there's something about this, the mushy, like, is there something behind that? Is there a reason children do or don't like certain textures? And how do we how can we help them get used to a specific texture? Sure. When you look at the developmental continuum of what textures kids are able to handle mixed textures is the hardest textures Don't you think of like a soup where the you have broth and then you know, maybe a piece of meat that's a harder texture to chew, and then some mushy vegetables and it's all in one bite? That is a real Leave really challenging bite for motor skills, your oral motor chewing, and sensory things, because there's a lot to process there. Okay, and, you know, the broth might be maybe a degree or two hotter than the meat is, or, you know, like, there's so many things that come along with with that kind of a mixed texture thing. So if, you know and, and mushy things that maybe still need to be chewed, but really mush up really easily in the mouth, that's typically something that is more sensory, like, think about maybe biting into a cherry tomato, or a grape. And that, you know, when you've, it's firm on the outside, and then when you bite into it, it's squishy, and it squirts in your mouth. And that's, that is a big sensory reaction there that you have to be ready, you know, prepared for in your mouth. Now, if you've done it 100 times, not a big deal. If it's your first time, maybe you want to be prepared for it. So that you can, you know, just know exactly what's going to what, what to expect there. When we look at babies, first, they have liquid, they typically, in the past, we've always gotten a puree next. Now with baby led weaning, you know, there are things where we might we actually like to help babies do like, we may give them something that they can't bite off of, you know, hold on to this big carrot stick, that's, you know, like a huge one, and we're not talking about a baby carrot, we're talking about a big carrot stick, you know, and hold on to this. And with supervision, there's because you don't want to just walk away from them, we want to look at, you know, are they able to chew on this, put it on the side of their mouth, on their molars or where their molars will be, and move it back and moving that back in their mouth helps them develop where their gag reflex needs to be. If they're getting reflexes too far forward in their mouth. You know, we have issues with getting getting the gag reflex, move back then, and we need to do more of, you know, chewing on the sides chewing on both sides. Sometimes we do something that's called a tongue walk to get used to things going back on our tongue and not producing a gag reflex. But the more that we can help babies know, oh, if this gets back in my mouth too far, what do I need to do? I need to pull that out of my mouth, then they have control over it. And they're, they're developing more or oral motor skills as they go. Okay, so talking into the gag reflex, because I find this interesting. There is a way to train yourself away from that gag reflex. We all need a gag reflex we don't like to give meaning meaning. Children again, I have one specifically, you cannot go in his mouth. Like he's always gagging at the dentist. It's very difficult. They have to give them gas every time. Yes. Is there a way to train him to get more comfortable with things further back in his mouth? Yes, yes. So with an older child, what I would suggest is I would give him like, probably you could even use like a tongue depressor a popsicle stick, you know, and start on the very tip of his mouth, he can do it himself, he can look in the mirror and push straight down on the middle of his tongue with firm pressure. You don't want it to be too light, because that could be really alerting a deep pressure will be more calming and organizing. So you can push and then push, push, just take little walking steps back with that. And when he's getting to the point where he's like, Oh, I'm almost where I'm ready to gang. Take that out. Start and take a deep breath. Start over. And eventually like by practicing that, say once a day, you know for a few times, reps there, you will start to be able to push that gag reflex back in the mouth. And what we really want to see is that the gag reflex does not start for at least halfway back on your tongue. Okay, okay. Interested in at least you'll be able to go to the dentist successfully. This, like, I had spoken to someone, I think it was the speech therapist, and she was talking about how our jaws should be worked like what we eat. And she commented about and I found this fascinating, maybe you can speak into this a little bit how when you choose to like, especially me, we should be moving between both sides. Who does then, because you want to make sure the muscles on both sides of your jaw are working effectively. And I'm like, I only two on one side. I think most of us do have a favorite side. And you know, you, you definitely know that if you've had dental work and you you're sore, or you've had kids have braces and they're sore, more sore on one side than the other. You know, but like when I'm when I'm working with kids, we all have one side of our body that is, you know, more developed, that's why we have a hand dominance. That's why we have a foot dominance. And you know, and we all have one side of our body that we just tend to use more than the other. Right? And so, in feeding therapy, if I see the child is always tending towards one side or the other, then you know, we'll, we'll practice you know, okay, so this last time you you use the veggie stick on your on the right side over here, you know, this time, let's take some bites on the other side, on the left side, you know, can you do three crunches on the left? You know, and we'll see if that, you know, it's called tongue lateralization where if you bite right in the middle of your mouth, being able to lateralized the food will take it over towards where your molars are on the side teeth. Okay, and does that have visit your tongue and the strength? And this is probably getting into just me. Does it have anything to do? What the gag reflex like? Would you say like a weaker? Tongue? is certainly can It's okay, can they don't have to be related? Okay. But yeah, yeah, okay. There's certainly wondering thing. Okay, you know, there aren't there. Yeah, there are some kids who it gets into sensory and motor skills where some kids have a hard time with moving their tongue. And so when they're, they have a hard time learning to use that tongue lateralization. So they don't use a rotary chewing pattern, what they do is just an up and down a munching pattern. They use their tongue to mush the food up against the roof of their mouth. Okay, both of those. I mean, what you see in in kids, if they're mushing the food up against the roof of their mouth, or they're just doing an up and down pattern, they're messy. And they get food stuck in their mouth, on the roof of their mouth, they might give you a lot more if they get food stuck up there and they can't handle it. Okay, you know, so that's when we really need to get in there and do a lot more of the the chewing exercises and make sure that their tongue can move the food to the side. Okay. Okay. So interesting. All right. So you have mentioned, I was looking at your website, and you spoke about how OTS tend to focus on the doing, but you really want to focus on the BA. Can you explain that? Yes, actually. So this is actually a great segue into this because we have actually been talking the the sensory, the motor, the chewing and swallowing, the gag reflex. All of those things are the doing part of that which is so important. It's vital for being successful with eating. What I am looking at is even before those steps, you know, yes, those are all important. Yes, we need the knowledge and we need to know how to fix these things. The Bing though is the part that a lot of people will just skim over and not paying enough attention to and the Bing is developing a relationship and being connected with the caregiver that you're working with and developing trust in that feeding relationship, we were looking for felt safety, you know, and if we think I know, you've talked about the polyvagal theory before, which I love, the vagus nerve is responsible for so much in our body for our sensory awareness for social being the poly vagal nerve, you know, there's the rest and digest part of it. And then there's also the fight and flight part of it. And when we have the fight and flight part turned on, we have zero hunger, hunger is shut off if we are in fight or flight. So if we're focusing only on the doing part of, you know, I want you to chew this, I want you to swallow this, and we have a child that's getting more and more anxious about the feeding process, we are not doing ourselves any favors with that anxiety coming into that, that equation there, we want to make sure that that child is really regulated, feeling calm, feeling safe, feeling like oh, this is kind of fun, feeling connected and have, you know, having a good relationship with the food and with the caregiver at that point, so that we can keep that those hunger cues turned on, because that's still important for the rest and digest part of the polynomial equation there. Okay, so would you recommend that when parents sit down like to take a moment, I think this was something I had thought about how naturally there are certain things that are done in everyday life, more so probably years ago than today, and how maybe it wasn't planned, but how it kind of created certain situations. And what I'm thinking of specifically is, but no matter, your religion, or your beliefs, or anything like that, years ago, people would sit down and have a prayer before they ate. And it's almost like this, I was like, Oh, that's so interesting, like this calming. And now we sit down and we're rushing, and we're, you know, like, so would you recommend, and it doesn't have to be prayer, it can be whatever you choose, but that calming, when you sit down to sit and just be calm for a couple of minutes before you start eating? Absolutely. Well, and part of that, too, is is that it is a cognitive signal to your brain that, you know, oh, I need to get in the zone. You know, and you're absolutely right. Like we're resting, we're on the go, we either sit down and eat, or so many eat in the car, you know, and that I mean, there's, there's so much that happens. Or there's there's a device on there's the TV or you know, a phone screen or, you know, YouTube is on so many things so that, you know, people are zoning out and not paying attention to their body signals. And, you know, yes, doing something like that. And prayer is definitely a big part of like, let's, let's stop, let's reflect on this, let's get get our bodies ready for this nourishment. And in therapy, too, we will talk about having a cognitive reset, you know, we may, before we dive into the feeding situation, we may do like, I am always looking at what sensory system is being delivered to me here in this in this situation, you know, is this child, you know, really out of sorts, because, oh no, they were running late. And you know, this happened. And this happened. And this happened and mom was stressed. And so the child picked up on that stress, we need to reset that because if we're feeling stressed, it's not gonna go well with that we need we may need to, you know, do something that is a different kind of a sensory activity before we ever even get the food out. You know, and so we also I recommend that we will do maybe some kind of a sensory warm up before meals and snacks. And even sometimes just having a routine of you know, we put our toys away. So we don't have those distractions there. And then we go wash our hands because that's a good hygiene thing, and it resets us and it gives our brain the signal that it's almost time to eat. Okay, perfect. And then when I think about out like, everything you're talking about with sensory. You know, for those people who are maybe I always think of it like HSPs highly sensitive people, but sometimes the reason is the non awareness of it, right. So, like you had mentioned, if you're putting soup in your mouth, and you've got all these different textures, because it's a new sensation, that might be more of the issue. But maybe just sitting down taking a minute to look at what's on your plate, smell, what's on your plate, all of that can kind of create that more calming, knowing that, you know, this is what we're doing now and being more comfortable with the sensory experience. I don't know. Yes, absolutely. And that also brings up a good point, too, that I really love the what's called the division of responsibility. And that was developed by Ellen Sattar. She's a speech therapist who works in feeding also. And really, you know, the parents in this division of responsibility, the parent decides what to serve, doesn't just serve, it decides where to serve it. And so those are the parents responsibilities, what, when, where the child then is responsible for how much and even if they needs that, so it really respects the child's autonomy there. And you know, and it respects hunger cues, too. You know, not every child is is hungry every two hours, if there's something that's being offered to them at that point, so, and one thing my doctor had said to me, years ago, when they were when my kids were little is don't expect your children to sit down for three meals a day. Allow them to have a meal, kind of, he said, like on the go, like not meaning us being on the go, but it's down on the you know, countertop? And if they wanted to nibble, but I guess maybe is that a toddler thing? Like where they're not that you want? I mean, okay, then I start thinking, okay, choking hazards, running around the house, choking hazards, all of that. But I felt like my children, one specifically, who did much better not sitting down for lunch, yes, we sat down for breakfast and dinner, but he was Go, go, go, go go. And he did not want to sit down for lunch. Like, yeah, he wouldn't. Yeah, sure. And that's, I mean, they're, they're different points of view for, like, there's, there's, there's always pros and cons to one thing that, you know, like, if, if children are getting to the point where they're hangry, which happens, you know, and, and the meal is not ready, if you can give them something that is an option that, you know, maybe you have fresh veggies cut up, and they're, you know, like, this is your appetizer for before the meals so that you've got an option there. And, you know, we all eat standing up, we're standing up while we're, you know, preparing our meals in the kitchen and those kinds of things, too. So, you know, we want to make things as normal as possible, and have them be in a routine that makes sense for your family. That's, that's a big key, you know, and just knowing your child moms know their kids best. And, you know, you figured out what works for your child's there. So I think that's a very important thing. And I also think that, you know, we are used to thinking about three square meals a day, and then snacks in between and, you know, like, I think that in this day and age, we need to give ourselves permission to kind of think outside the box sometimes. And, you know, especially for toddlers, toddlers want to eat and they want to eat a lot. And and if you're thinking oh, this is a snack for a toddler, and so they need you know, like, here's your package, a goldfish crackers, not necessarily, you know, a snack for a toddler could be what you would feed them for a meal, too, right? You know, you and really, I look at things as being for a snack or a meal. You really you want to include a protein of fruit or vegetable and a carbohydrate so that you got some balance there and that doesn't have to mean that you have to go all out and prepare a huge thing every two hours for your child, that's not reasonable. Nobody has time for that, you know, but a snack for a toddler could be, you know, you could have peanut butter for the protein, you can have apple slices for the fruit. And you could have a few cheese crackers, you know, so that you've got it rounded. And maybe they are still learning about apple slices. Maybe they're still learning about peanut butter, but maybe the cheese crackers are the go to foods. So you've hit those things, and you've got different, different textures involved there. You've got, you know, different flavors, and you've got some nutritional aspects in there. Okay, so let us know where we can find you and learn more from you. Because I'm sure lots of people would like to know how you can make mealtime easier for them. Absolutely. So my website is that makes sense. OT it's a little bit hard because there are two s's in a row there. That makes sense. ote.com. And then I'm on Instagram at that makes sense Oh, T. And, yeah, I would love to connect with people, I do have a couple of free offerings that if you you know want to sign up on the website that just can give us some tips for helping along this feeding journey. And then I'm actually coming out with a new video offer for families that it's in pre launch right now, hopefully it will be in launch for this podcast. So actually, it's called the table time video offer. And it's really for those who are tired of the power struggles and are feeling stuck in where do I go, and what do I do for these mealtimes that are so super hard for us. So this offer is going to be videotaping your biggest mealtime challenges. And then we will have a place where it's encrypted, it's safe to send those in to me, so that I can help you along your feeding journey. So that it's tailored educational advice that you will get with that, I do want to say that this does not take the place of feeding therapy, there is always a place for feeding therapy, you know, but it's also, you know, it's for those who have been told by their pediatrician to wait and see. And they know that they have an issue that they want to have addressed and they don't know where to turn. It's also for those who might be on a waiting list, because that does happen. feeding therapy is a little bit hard to hard to get to. And it could also be for those that are are in feeding therapy right now and just need some more suggestions for what can I change at home to help my child. So really this offer, we're looking to bring it out so that it's a disruptor in the market right now get, you know, make it accessible, the you know, parents, parents want education, they want to help their children. And really we're looking at finding more accessible and affordable ways for parents to be able to help their kids with these feeding struggles. So for your for this offer, because I really appreciate you having me on your podcast. I will I am offering this in introductory price for$49. For this, so that will be up on my website. And you know, it's tailored to the specific needs and of the individual child and family. And I would love to help out with some educational tips with that. So perfect. Thank you so much for that before we can, if you could provide just one piece of information that moms could take with them this week to work on with their children around mealtime and helping them raise healthier eaters. What would that be? That is such a good question. It is so hard to come up with just one. Okay. Like up to three. Sounds good. Um, okay. So I think one of the main thing is, is trust your child's hunger signals. I think that's a huge thing you know, To help your child feel calm and organized in that situation, connect with them, have fun with them. Get them involved in the kitchen, get them involved in what you know, wanting to explore foods, foods should be a fun and happy time, and not a stressful time for anybody, parents or for kids. So, and you know, food is food, you know, we like to assign that this is good food and this is healthy food. And that this is, this is the treat. And this is what you can have afterwards. You know, if you have a child that is struggling with food, and they really tend towards the sweet snacks, or the salty snacks, incorporate that into their their routine, expose them to everything else, and allow them to explore. Perfect, thank you so much for taking time out of your day for this. Thank you so much. I really enjoyed being here, Courtney. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Brenda. I feel like she provided us a lot of information to think about dinnertime differently and how we can get our children involved with all of their senses at mealtime. Rather than just that textural type thing that many of us think about when we think about occupational therapy and mealtime. I do want to let you know that at the end, she mentioned that she was able to provide our listeners information for the videos. And she did want me to specify for you that it's for the first 20 of you that reached out to her. So I think this is going to be so valuable for some of you. So I hope you take her up on that. All of this information will be in the show notes for you as well.